Home » Development Forums » HyperVM Development » So, whats going on?(Seriously...)
| So, whats going on? [message #77185] |
Thu, 14 October 2010 12:57  |
 rmwebs 
Messages: 86
Registered: September 2007
Location: UK, England |
Valuable Member |
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It's been a while since I posted here as I've moved away from HyperVM, however recently I've been looking at it again, and was met with a few concerns.
I know that the SVN code is all opensource, but the release code is not. You cant be calling the project opensource when you are distributing an encoded release as the primary, stable release.
I've also noticed that development seems to have stalled completely, with only minor bugs being fixed in SVN (which unfortunately may as well not have been done as you've not released an update in a year).
I really hate to see this place in the state it is. From what I can gather the management of the project has been patchy at best. The fact that you've not even removed the licensing system yet is cause for great concern.
Really, I would just like someone to post (HERE) whats actually being done. What is your roadmap, where are your milestones, when do you plan on a stable release. It seems you've spent more time on getting a fancy website and logos made than actually developing. Is this because there is a lack of skilled developers, or just a lack of wanting to develop?
Finally, I have been browsing the source and its plane to see that the PHP code is terribly dated and shockingly coded. Obviously a lot of it is old code from Ligesh, however why have you not started converting to an OOP based MVC framework? Its the only way you'll ever get this project sorted out.
I really hate to say this, but I really am disappointed with the lack of work. I know everyone working on this is a volunteer, and I really do appreciate that its a spare-time thing. But you really need to be putting yourselves out there and hunting down developers. They wont come to you, you must go to them!
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| Re: So, whats going on? [message #77239 is a reply to message #77185] |
Fri, 15 October 2010 23:48  |
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Quote:I know that the SVN code is all opensource, but the release code is not. You cant be calling the project opensource when you are distributing an encoded release as the primary, stable release.
The code on 2.0.x is not 100% equal to rev0 on svn. Some stuff need(ed) be rewritten. You can't just push new code to production servers (with zend encoded files) and hope for the best. There were important updates, but it's a tiresome and risky process.
This is the responsible thing to do, whether you like it or not.
Quote:I've also noticed that development seems to have stalled completely, with only minor bugs being fixed in SVN (which unfortunately may as well not have been done as you've not released an update in a year).
Not everything is in the svn repository. KVM support for instance. When the developer is happy with it (last I heard 90% done), he will commit the changes. As you noticed, the code for both HyperVM and Kloxo were not branched yet pending the x.1.x releases in the next few weeks. So only bug fixes (for maintenance releases) will be worked on for now until the next minor release (6 months release cycle).
Quote:Really, I would just like someone to post (HERE) whats actually being done. What is your roadmap, where are your milestones, when do you plan on a stable release.
Maybe you missed the bug-tracker (http://project.lxcenter.org)? There you can see the roadmap and such.
Quote:It seems you've spent more time on getting a fancy website and logos made than actually developing. Is this because there is a lack of skilled developers, or just a lack of wanting to develop?
*ahem*
No comment.
Quote:Finally, I have been browsing the source and its plane to see that the PHP code is terribly dated and shockingly coded. Obviously a lot of it is old code from Ligesh, however why have you not started converting to an OOP based MVC framework? Its the only way you'll ever get this project sorted out.
Are you offering your coding skills? I mean, I had to check your post history and you seem to have lots of complaints. You know how they say: "actions speak louder than words".
Maybe you could attach patches to the bug-tracker? Or you can request a svn account if you must.
Quote:I really hate to say this, but I really am disappointed with the lack of work. I know everyone working on this is a volunteer, and I really do appreciate that its a spare-time thing. But you really need to be putting yourselves out there and hunting down developers. They wont come to you, you must go to them!
And I'm disappointed at your disappointment. :)
There were countless recruitment drives. Search the forum and weep. I don't have the hard numbers but I would bet 1 in 30 people offering their help had more than basic PHP knowledge. As you know, that doesn't work.
But lots were approached directly and very few were willing to commit some of their time to this. And don't get me started on the language barrier. If you can help with that, great. Go for it.
Anyway, here's what I think will happen in the next few months:
1) Kloxo 6.1.0 is released (sometime this month or the next) and no longer encoded. Most annoying bugs fixed (send beer to Martin).
2) Users can now easily poke around a provide fixes and new features. At least some decent bug reports. Maybe some committed coders.
3) Enough developers are freed to focus on HyperVM (2.1.0 release likely to be delayed).
4) Kloxo and HyperVM share plenty of code. A lot is learned from the release of Kloxo 6.1.0 and the HyperVM release will certainly benefit from this considering the exponentially larger Kloxo installed base.
5) HyperVM is released. More people complain the interface is the same and no new major feature. Developers sigh in disbelief.
6) People take the matter in their own hands and provide their own fixes and features. More people involved.
7) Everyone joins hands and sing kumbaya. Things went better than expected.
8) No profit (none intended, though). $572.89 donated in one year of operations can't even buy a half decent VPS. LxCenter prays the servers donated stays up when people hear the news of new releases.
9) Developers spend more of their own money and resources to keep things running so people can complain more about how ugly the code is or how HyperVM/Kloxo won't run in Ubuntu or other nonsense.
10) Go back to one and add 1 to minor release after 6 months.
Hope this answers your questions.
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| Re: So, whats going on? [message #77240 is a reply to message #77239] |
Sat, 16 October 2010 00:04 |
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Sorry, I missed one:
Quote:I really hate to see this place in the state it is. From what I can gather the management of the project has been patchy at best. The fact that you've not even removed the licensing system yet is cause for great concern.
Haters gonna hate. Licensing code is not fully removed yet, but it will no longer talk to the license server and set everything to "unlimited" in the next release. See http://project.lxcenter.org/issues/54 .
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| Re: So, whats going on? [message #77257 is a reply to message #77240] |
Sat, 16 October 2010 09:39 |
rmwebs
Messages: 86
Registered: September 2007
Location: UK, England |
Valuable Member |
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waltern,
Thanks for the detailed response. I've just been re-reading and my post does come across as being aggressive/bitchy. Just wanted to say that was certainly not my intention, it was just frustrating to see nothing being posted in the usual locations (i.e a blog or forum). I also want to say that I do greatly appreciate that the developers are working for free and out of their own pocket - and thats great that they are working hard to keep this going.
Whilst I would LOVE to be able to say I can spend X hours a day/week on this, I really cant commit a huge amount of time. I am however going to 'poke around' with the repository version, and if I get time will be happy to submit some bug fixes and features. Last year I actually built my own OpenVZ control panel which we used across 40 servers in our VPS hosting company, so will be able to do some work on the OpenVZ side of things. (PHP, Shell Scripts, etc - I'm not a C programmer however).
Do you guys have a location or email address where the average joe can submit code, or should it be posted on the project site?
Cheers
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| Re: So, whats going on? [message #77512 is a reply to message #77510] |
Sun, 31 October 2010 12:27 |
rmwebs
Messages: 86
Registered: September 2007
Location: UK, England |
Valuable Member |
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I agree - it was a fantastic product, but the fact that its been a year and no releases have come out is worrying. The team seem to be in the mindset of 'come to us if you want to help' and don't seem interested in listening to the community or looking for help elsewhere...the fact that the project is being managed by someone who cant code doesn't help (no offence intended, but you have to agree).
Really sad to see. We also stopped using it after the vulnrability and are using SolusVM, but would love to be back at a point where we had all the HyperVM features.
I actually downloaded the SVN version and have it running on one of my development servers. The code is bad - very bad...terrible in fact. Obviously its because its very old, however the team should be posting a public plan saying 'we plan to recode the project within X months' (it does need a complete recode, its not up to modern standards and is quickly becoming ridden with quick and dirty fixes).
I must admit, I am considering starting my own fork of HyperVM as I cant see how it will survive with the current lack of openness.
Personally after looking at the code, I wouldn't put it on a live server. Its just too likely that there are major security holes and/or bugs.
[Updated on: Sun, 31 October 2010 12:29] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: So, whats going on? [message #77524 is a reply to message #77518] |
Mon, 01 November 2010 13:02 |
rmwebs
Messages: 86
Registered: September 2007
Location: UK, England |
Valuable Member |
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NetTuningGroup wrote on Sun, 31 October 2010 22:27btw starting a own fork "clone" is only possible for own usage and the code must be public when asked for (AGPL-v3).
Forking it to be released to the public would be the goal. The Affero GPL allows this, and would still be used. If I was to start a fork, my goal would be to open it up (none of this registration nonsense) and keep everything in one place (where's the info currently? the forums? the website? the wiki? the project tracker?)
The issue is that the goal would end up being to replace 100% of the code. If I'm going to do that I may as well start from scratch. I already made a fully working OOP PHP based OpenVZ panel last year for my company, however obviously it doesnt have quite as many features as HVM.
I'm wanting to get it moved to a more suitable framework as I never built it to be very user-expandable. BUT because of the way it uses modules and is MVC based, it is fairly trivial to convert.
On the one side I want to fork HyperVM to help keep it alive, but on the other side I think it would be way too much work. For this reason I may just release my own, but still use hypervm's fantastic features as a basis for future features in the system I created - and again: It would be an opensource project which I would welcome people to rip apart, mess with, use, hate, etc.
On a side note, I have to say that whilst I think its great that LXCenter wants to get HyperVM back up on its feet, you'll never do it with the current code base. You should really be looking at a complete rewrite from scratch. The lack of openness doesnt help (lets be fair - LXCenter is NOT an opensource project in the sense that you expect it to be - its in no way 'open').
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| Re: So, whats going on? [message #77526 is a reply to message #77524] |
Mon, 01 November 2010 20:58 |
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I tried to distance myself from this convo, but seriously @rmwebs, put up or shut up.
First you complain of lack of updates on HyperVM. Fair enough, I partially agreed with you and gave you a dumbed down version of what's going on "behind the scenes".
You then say you have no time to help fixing whatever you think needs fixing. You chose to help with the Wiki instead. Great!
But then you "report" a forum admin message telling you your registration is pending e-mail confirmation with the reason "I'm a sysadmin with over 20 years experience and that's not how things work".
WTF?
What you say now confirms you never had the intention to help. You say you will fork (which is great! that's what open source is about) and later you say you will start from scratch.
For someone with no time to help, starting from scratch is a big task.
You were given EVERY option to contribute. Register for svn commit access, bug-tracker to attach patches, forum to bitch, wiki account, e-mail, my msn account at the very top of my messages... Everything.
What more do you want?
The code is there on svn. Fork it. Print it all and burn if you want. Or simply do as every other contributer: grab the code, fix and submit patches.
Any 10 year-old can do this. I simply don't know what's keeping you from doing it.
How can it be more open than now? Are you expecting someone to print all the code and deliver to your doorstep? Would you like me to bring you some coffee too?
ಠ_ಠ
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| Re: So, whats going on? [message #78447 is a reply to message #77526] |
Wed, 29 December 2010 07:06 |
rmwebs
Messages: 86
Registered: September 2007
Location: UK, England |
Valuable Member |
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Waltern - not going to bother trying to correct you. Clearly you've misread my post. Either way, I just wanted to set the record straight as I've had a number of people PM me offering assistance in forking the two products. Basically I started doing a fork, however it got to the point where I was actually rewriting files. After about 3 files I gave in. Its just too messy to work with and to even consider continuing on the current code base will be a nightmare.
With that in mind I am now building a new control panel from scratch alongside another developer. We've so far built a new MVC based framework to keep it all tidy. We also decided o incorporate the billing & support system, and at the same time allow remote setups on other control panels such as cPanel, DirectAdmin, SolusVM, etc.
Think of it if you will as a complete hosting system: Billing, Support, Server control - all in one. We'll be focusing on getting OpenVZ support up and running first with Xen and KVM following shortly after. Due to the way its being developed, there will be a generic interface for all VPS actions, and you just use a different 'driver' depending on which virtualization technology the server is using.
At this time we are not looking for development assistance as we're still doing some internal planning and documentation. Laying out file structures, etc. Without planning any project is doomed, so we are making sure its done right first time. I'll post back here with a URL when we get everything up and running 
--
Back to the last point in your post, where you said "How can it be more open than now?" the answer is simple: VERY EASILY. Cmon, you seem like a reasonable, smarty guy but you cant seriously think that LXCenter has made it easy to contribute.
Look at it from the point of view of someone who has come here wanting to contribute.
Step 1: Register on the forums
Step 2: Register on the wiki
Step 3: Register on the project manager
Step 4: Send countless PM's until your wiki account is activated
Step 5: Attempt to read the broken english and incorrectly documented wiki
Step 6: Attempt to install the SVN version using incorrect Wiki instructions
Step 7: Manually fix the PHP errors all over the SVN version (if you turn of PHP errors you are a fool. They exist to warn you!)
Step 8: APPLY to become an SVN committer (Which I did about a week after the form went online - never heard anything back. Go figure!)
Why are you making it so damn complicated?! Grab yourself a copy of phpbb - Redmine can share its login. phpbb will also share login with docuwiki. Single sign in - much easier to work with.
Scrap the wiki and start again. Why the hell have you got someone working on a custom docs script/site?! Use an existing wiki system that WORKS and doesn't require manual verification. Its 2010...you don't NEED all this manual authentication any more - reCaptcha exists for a reason, and bots can get round a simple "what is 1 + 1" input box on a registration form.
Stop fannying about with fancy websites and designing new documentation sites. Nobody wants this. Nobody cares about this.
On top of this, there is this strong stigma of arrogance around here. The developers (no offence to them) come across as being very hostile towards anyone who questions anything.
I'll leave it there as its clear this will fall on Deaf ears. No doubt any response I get here is going to be sarcastic and/or another bout of 'WTF's explaining how awesomely open the project is.
[Updated on: Wed, 29 December 2010 07:08] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: So, whats going on? [message #78461 is a reply to message #78447] |
Wed, 29 December 2010 17:49 |
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Quote:Waltern - not going to bother trying to correct you. Clearly you've misread my post. Either way, I just wanted to set the record straight as I've had a number of people PM me offering assistance in forking the two products. Basically I started doing a fork, however it got to the point where I was actually rewriting files. After about 3 files I gave in. Its just too messy to work with and to even consider continuing on the current code base will be a nightmare.
With that in mind I am now building a new control panel from scratch alongside another developer. We've so far built a new MVC based framework to keep it all tidy. We also decided o incorporate the billing & support system, and at the same time allow remote setups on other control panels such as cPanel, DirectAdmin, SolusVM, etc.
Think of it if you will as a complete hosting system: Billing, Support, Server control - all in one. We'll be focusing on getting OpenVZ support up and running first with Xen and KVM following shortly after. Due to the way its being developed, there will be a generic interface for all VPS actions, and you just use a different 'driver' depending on which virtualization technology the server is using.
At this time we are not looking for development assistance as we're still doing some internal planning and documentation. Laying out file structures, etc. Without planning any project is doomed, so we are making sure its done right first time. I'll post back here with a URL when we get everything up and running
--
Back to the last point in your post, where you said "How can it be more open than now?" the answer is simple: VERY EASILY. Cmon, you seem like a reasonable, smarty guy but you cant seriously think that LXCenter has made it easy to contribute.
Look at it from the point of view of someone who has come here wanting to contribute.
Step 1: Register on the forums
Step 2: Register on the wiki
Step 3: Register on the project manager
Step 4: Send countless PM's until your wiki account is activated
Step 5: Attempt to read the broken english and incorrectly documented wiki
Step 6: Attempt to install the SVN version using incorrect Wiki instructions
Step 7: Manually fix the PHP errors all over the SVN version (if you turn of PHP errors you are a fool. They exist to warn you!)
Step 8: APPLY to become an SVN committer (Which I did about a week after the form went online - never heard anything back. Go figure!)
Why are you making it so damn complicated?! Grab yourself a copy of phpbb - Redmine can share its login. phpbb will also share login with docuwiki. Single sign in - much easier to work with.
Scrap the wiki and start again. Why the hell have you got someone working on a custom docs script/site?! Use an existing wiki system that WORKS and doesn't require manual verification. Its 2010...you don't NEED all this manual authentication any more - reCaptcha exists for a reason, and bots can get round a simple "what is 1 + 1" input box on a registration form.
Stop fannying about with fancy websites and designing new documentation sites. Nobody wants this. Nobody cares about this.
On top of this, there is this strong stigma of arrogance around here. The developers (no offence to them) come across as being very hostile towards anyone who questions anything.
I'll leave it there as its clear this will fall on Deaf ears. No doubt any response I get here is going to be sarcastic and/or another bout of 'WTF's explaining how awesomely open the project is.
[Updated on: Wed, 29 December 2010 10:08]
Of course you won't bother to correct me (correct what exactly?). As you won't bother to help code anything. Or write documentation. Or do ANYTHING to help improve HyperVM/Kloxo.
Again, put up or shut up. SVN is open as always. Grab the code, fix and attach a patch to http://project.lxcenter.org . Others have done it and so can you.
And if you want to discuss arrogance, let's make a list:
1) You reported Danny Terweij forum messages with the reason "I'm a sysadmin with over 20 years experience and that's not how things work". He is one of the people responsible for open sourcing HyperVM and Kloxo and also LxCenter's sysadmin. You weren't even in your fathers ballsack yet and he was already coding.
2) You keep spreading FUD. One just need to see your posting history.
3) You keep pushing your own inexistent control panel here, in HyperVM development forum.
4) You keep criticizing things and people you know nothing about. The wiki, for instance, had open registration briefly until a bunch of people started deleting and vandalizing articles. It simply does not work without some background check. Docs are being slowly rewritten and moved elsewhere using existing CMS (a la php.net). No one is reinventing the wheel nor was it implied anywhere. Same for the site as it was only moved to WP with a custom theme for various and important reasons (fancyness wasn't one of them).
5) You blow things way out of proportion to try to prove your point. Things like "Send countless PM's until your wiki account is activated" is a lie unless you can't count to 2. You sent 1 (ONE) PM and replied ONCE. As to "Attempt to install the SVN version using incorrect Wiki instructions", I wrote the instructions. People with NO linux shell experience got it working in the first try and with NO assistance. Feedback has been 100% positive. What's your excuse?
6) You misrepresent yourself. Your Bio in your web site includes things such as "I've been involved in creating websites for just over 4 years and have self-taught myself several skills." and "...After this I self-taught myself many server management and networking abilitys and currently run a custom home server, as well as a VPS located in the US.". You also list (X)HTML and CSS as programming languages. While nothing wrong with that, it's quite a stretch to say you are a "sysadmin for over 20 years". There is also no previous managerial history to put weight behind your opinions. Simply googling your name and e-mail shows you are not the person you try to portray and probably the reason why you did not get a SVN account (as well as being a douche nozzle to LxCenter contributers).
7) You lie. "I just wanted to set the record straight as I've had a number of people PM me offering assistance in forking the two products.". Seriously, stop lying. Credibility is much like virginity. You only lose it once. Forum admins can and do check users (or spammers) PM history when it's warranted and such is your case (suspicion of PM spam and abusive behavior towards staff and/or users).
</rant>
I don't care about your project but I wish you luck anyway. But start your own forum to discuss its development.
HyperVM forums are for HyperVM discussions ONLY. If you continue to talk about your project here I will have to lock the topic.
Reserve your personal opinions to the Open and Non-Technical Discussions or General Development forums.
And please, be nice. We work with the little we have. It's far from perfect but not the hell you portray here or in older topics. I try and do my homework. Try and do yours.
Thanks,
Your friendly, deaf and sarcastic forum admin.
PS: It's open! It's awesome! LxCenter is the best thing since sliced bread!
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| Re: So, whats going on? [message #78562 is a reply to message #77185] |
Sat, 01 January 2011 21:02 |
rmwebs
Messages: 86
Registered: September 2007
Location: UK, England |
Valuable Member |
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Hi Chaps,
Hope everyone had a good Xmas/New Year. Ok - I'm going to call a truce. Simply because I can reply back with points ABC and you can reply back with A=1 B=2 C=3 and we'll be here forever.
I just wanted to note that I do respect the work you guys are doing, please dont get me wrong, and on reflection I guess I did come off as an ass - which was not my intention. There however was no need for the hostility shown by Waltern, which appears to be a trate you've carried over to WHT in a recent thread.
That said, I must also say that I find it pretty bad that you're looking through peoples PM's and would like to request you either tell people you are doing this in the registration form, or stop. Its extremely unethical. You need to address this asap, along with a privacy policy. I'd be more than happy to provide you with a privacy policy I personally use and have had checked by my Lawyer (its checked for UK law however should be fine) - shoot me a message if you would like a copy.
I would also like to congratulate you on the new release of Kloxo. Glad to see it finally complying to the GPL's requirements that all GPL software be opensource.
I have however found what may possibly lead to yet another major security issue. Inside the 'horde' mail installation file, you have a query creating an admin user with the same password across all installations:
$query = "INSERT INTO horde_users (user_uid, user_pass) VALUES ('admin','21232f297a57a5a743894a0e4a801fc3')" ;
I realize that its an md5 hash, however we all know how easy it is to break. It took me 30 seconds to work out that the hash is 'admin'.
I'm going under the assumption that this isn't being overwritten after installation as I'll admit I'm unfamiliar with the codebase. I just wanted to bring it to your attention now to prevent a possible issue.
Finally I just want to reassure Waltern: I'm not here to promote another control panel. I still use Kloxo on my SheevaPlug (I think they are also sold as a 'Tonido' plug with some extra software) development box as it works a treat on such a low memory device. BTW, I highly recommend one if you want a fairly cheap local development server
[Updated on: Sat, 01 January 2011 21:27] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: So, whats going on? [message #78593 is a reply to message #78562] |
Mon, 03 January 2011 20:08 |
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Report bugs at http://project.lxcenter.org/ if not already reported.
I don't get:
"That said, I must also say that I find it pretty bad that you're looking through peoples PM's and would like to request you either tell people you are doing this in the registration form, or stop. Its extremely unethical. You need to address this asap, along with a privacy policy. I'd be more than happy to provide you with a privacy policy I personally use and have had checked by my Lawyer (its checked for UK law however should be fine) - shoot me a message if you would like a copy."
Who and where: reading PM's ?
Give me an example what system/website, what email addesses etc.
if i am right, there is a running patch for default passwords in webmailapps....
What file you see that in?
 
LxCenter - System Operations
[Updated on: Mon, 03 January 2011 20:09] Report message to a moderator |
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